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EU Roundtable #2.3

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And now for something completely different. For the second time this Series, I was not present for a chat. This time, however, it wasn?t my decision. It?s been almost a year, but if I remember correctly, I was a week away from graduating from college, I?d just moved, my internet wasn?t working, the school computers were unavailable, and the library was closed. But enough about me - my guests, luckily, had more than enough to say to carry on without my ?guidance?. The theme was something akin to ?a literary analysis of the EU?, so look forward to lots of references to characters and themes you?re (well, I?m) completely unfamiliar with. Our illustrious chatters were as follows:

• Jessica Coplen, someone with no particular internet-specific distinctions to mention, but trust me - she knows her stuff.

• Candi Young, aka Tahi, New Zealander and prominent contributor to the Jedi Council Fan Fiction boards.

• Paul Urquhart, aka ThrawnMcEwok, a fellow who will soon, if not already, need no introduction. But here?s one just in case.

I should point out quickly that this chat also has the distinction of being the only one to take place on IRC as opposed to AIM, the result of which is the occasional use of the /me code, allowing the user to insert a ?third person? statement about themselves. You?ll see what I mean. Given the freeform nature of this particular convo, I?m gonna pull back the curtain slightly and let you get a feel for these folks a little bit before the actual discussion began. And don?t forget that this time, I, sadly, am not Mike Cooper. Well, I am, I?m just not ? oh, nevermind?

You have just entered room "EU Roundtable."

Jessica Coplen: *sighs*...were is COOP!

Paul Urquhart: Do we really need him...

Candi Young: it's a bit like Waiting for godot

Jessica Coplen: i don't know....he is the moderator and the one doing this for Force.net

Jessica Coplen: I'm sure we could chat about what we chatted about last time...but will he accept it?

Paul Urquhart: *picks oyster off tree*

Jessica Coplen: random...

Paul Urquhart: Okay. "The influence of Samuel Beckett's _Waiting for Godot_ on the Nom Anor scenes of FH3"?

Candi Young: what did you chat about last time?

Jessica Coplen: I'm gonna kill you Ewok.....you know I can.

Paul Urquhart: Yeah. And you know I'll enjoy it...

Jessica Coplen: We chatted about Vader....about the NJO....but I honest to god don't remember the exact topics

Jessica Coplen: i was kinda hoping that coop would show up and save me

Jessica Coplen: um..us

Paul Urquhart: *cackles, grins at Candi*

Paul Urquhart: *sharpens pointy stick*

Candi Young: lol    *grins uncertainly at everyone*

Jessica Coplen: didn't coop say he was changing the topics slightly?

Paul Urquhart: Probably.

Paul Urquhart: Well, if he doesn't like what we do, he can rerun it. If we don't do anything, we have to rerun it anyway.

Paul Urquhart: So, to start. Assuming everyone knows the Arthurian myth in outline.

Jessica Coplen: I'm not sure if I like the idea of Ewok being in charge.....

Candi Young: getting memory back into line   lol

Paul Urquhart: I'm not...

Paul Urquhart: Can we read the SW saga as the same story, with Mordred as the hero and Merlin as the villain?

Paul Urquhart: Or is Palpatine Vivien?

Paul Urquhart: (Stanshall?)

Jessica Coplen: Vivien?  Don't remember that from my Athurian legend. It's been awhile.

Candi Young: I immediately thought of Vivien in The Young Ones   lol

Paul Urquhart: Vivien - sorceress who seduces Merlin and locks him up...

Candi Young: ah

Paul Urquhart: No. Ben = Lancelot

Paul Urquhart: The very parfait gentle knight

Jessica Coplen: But Lancelot takes Gueniver, are you assuming something of EP3?

Paul Urquhart: It's always been lurking in the subtext...

Paul Urquhart: The TPM novellization contains the last echoes of the triangle... and I think it's clear enough that it's Ben who Padme's pleased to see in AotC...

Jessica Coplen: Only the way you read subtext Ewok...let's not forget your whole Mara/Anakin Solo "theory".

Candi Young: I guess the analogy can work even without excat matches in the details

Candi Young tries to forget the Mara/Ankin thing

Jessica Coplen: But that's TPM.  But Candi is right. I guess we don't have to have a "direct" corrolation.

Paul Urquhart: Jess - no, my bad - in the AotC novellization, clearly, Padme has eyes for Qwi-Gon (in what was originally the Ben role)...

Paul Urquhart: Agreed.

Jessica Coplen: But then if there is no "direct" corrolation, how can we say it can be read as the same story?

Jessica Coplen: not to nit-pick or anything.....

Candi Young: I guess also that the movies might confound the book versiona bit too

Paul Urquhart: Lancelot is a secondary character...

Paul Urquhart: Late addition to the myth, I guess...

Candi Young: due to the fact that movies always seem to have to introduce suggested pairings

Jessica Coplen: Yeah, why do you think that is Candi?

Paul Urquhart: At least, as Guinivere's lover. Originally, he's just a thug, poster-boy for the guys who kill Beckett...

Paul Urquhart: Who, in their defence, were just normal knights doing their job...

Candi Young: probably typical Hollywood habit   audience thing 

Candi Young: they always seem to assume we want romance   

Jessica Coplen: I always prefer psycholigical trips myself...but I see your point Candi.

Jessica Coplen: Are you sure Lancelot wouldn't be more of a Han then Ewok?

Paul Urquhart: Well, it's the genre we're going for...

Paul Urquhart: No, Han and Chewie are generic barbarians...

Candi Young: me too    but It's hard to get actors capable of conveying psychological stuff sadly

Jessica Coplen: Candi, these actors couldn't even portray romance in the PT....Hayden and Portman looked constipated throughout the whole movie..

Candi Young: Han and Chewie probably fir into several categories

Paul Urquhart: Aye...

Candi Young: the outsiders who appear to be a bit dubious but then turn out to be noble

Paul Urquhart: What I was thinking was, in terms of George's overarching story, to start with...

Jessica Coplen: I can't see Han as generic barbarian. His character is important.

Paul Urquhart: Obviously, it facets into lots of things...

Candi Young: and of course they also fit into the redemption theme that runs through SW

Candi Young: of people rising above their personal wants for the greater good

Jessica Coplen: My thoughts exactly Candi...which is why Greedo never shot...at all

Jessica Coplen: Putting that in the SE just took away that entire character dynamic

Candi Young: constiptaed actors    LOL   true though

Paul Urquhart: Hmm. Australian cooking?

Paul Urquhart: Hmm. That said, should we read the SEs as movies, or something more pretentious?

Jessica Coplen: Such as, Ewok?

Candi Young: more pretentious I think

Candi Young: it often happens that way   the revision lacks the belief and spirit of the original

Paul Urquhart: Achilles and Patroclus? (sp.?)

Paul Urquhart: A commentary on power corrupting, unintentional or otherwise...

Jessica Coplen: Close enough Ewok...but what do those two have to do with this?  Who's your Achilles and who's your Patroclus?

Paul Urquhart: Han and Chewie.

Paul Urquhart: The young hero in a huff, and his older, more barbarian, sidekick...

Jessica Coplen: hhhmmmmm...In NJO Han does loose it when Chewie dies, just as Patroclus gets vengeful against Hector

Paul Urquhart: Gilgamesh and the Wild Man, I guess I mean when we get back to it.

Paul Urquhart: Damn monomyth...

Candi Young: hmmm that's a good thought

Jessica Coplen: But that would mean Hector=Vong, and considering Hector was the only noble character of the bunch....makes you wonder

Paul Urquhart: Well, they are...

Paul Urquhart: Denning has said that he wrote Tsavvy Lah as a good man unleashed by circumstances...

Candi Young: Han goes on a kind of retro journey   tempoaraily forgets his family etc

Jessica Coplen: Troy was defending itself. Vong invaded.  But I suppose the parallels don't have to go that far.

Paul Urquhart: Aye...

Paul Urquhart: Han is looking (still looking) for the secret of eternal life...

Paul Urquhart: (on the Gilgamesh theme)

Paul Urquhart: Hence his cynicsm. He looks, can't find...

Candi Young: I don't see the Vong as essentially bad   when you comapre them with what the HR had become thay're not too bad at all

Jessica Coplen: Well, we just compared Han to Achilles and Gilgamesh effectively...any other classic heros we want to throw into the mix?

Paul Urquhart: HR? NR? Hey, I *like* Borsk and Fyor

Candi Young: I sometimes think that in a way you could read the advent of the Vong as a akind felicitous thing  

Paul Urquhart: I think that's what Vergere thought, if that's any consolation...

Candi Young: I wish the writers had focussed more on Han's journey in the NJO as that could have been interesting

Jessica Coplen: That's true Candi. The actual everyday vong were just, well, people. Caught up in the whole great journey. Hector defended Troy, and his brother, because it was his duty. This is getting scarely paralleled.

Paul Urquhart: Check

Paul Urquhart: So who's Cassandra? Nem Yim?

Jessica Coplen: Candi, the authors could have done a lot of things....

Jessica Coplen: Good one Ewok!

Candi Young: exactly   as in any war situation it's not the everyday people it's the agendas of teh powerful ones that are either good or bad

Paul Urquhart: And both lots seem bad, if you'll ask me.

Candi Young: Yep I can see Nen Yim as the Cassandra

Candi Young: yep both did seem a bit tainted

Jessica Coplen: Luke=Odysseus?  Doesn't want to have to fight. Wants to find a more peaceful solution. in the end provides the key to victory.

Candi Young: maybe it's a comment on the futility of war

Paul Urquhart: So what's the palladium?

Paul Urquhart: And who's Achilles?

Jessica Coplen: Sekot=Trojan Horse

Paul Urquhart: *Aeneas?

Paul Urquhart: Yep

Jessica Coplen: Aeneas...been thinking that...how about Jacen?

Paul Urquhart: No... we want a Trojan...

Paul Urquhart: I'm seeing the Empire of the Hand as Rome... Chiss = Etruscans

Candi Young: well I guess Luke and Jacen are kind of similar

Jessica Coplen: Aeneas is the only Trojan to live. He is the one who goes on to establish Latium aka Rome

Paul Urquhart: Yep... which looks to me like the UR...

Paul Urquhart: They're "west" on the map...

Jessica Coplen: He starts one of the greatest empires...and I think Jacen has been set up to be the new leader of the New Jedi Order...

Paul Urquhart: *wonders if/how ZS could be Phaecia*

Paul Urquhart: Jacen is Paul Atreides, Tyler Durden or Feric Jagger...

Candi Young: Jacen as a leader  now there's a scary thought

Paul Urquhart: *tries to think of pre-modern parallels*

Jessica Coplen: Jacen lived. Anakin died. That's an even scarier thought.

Paul Urquhart: I'll believe he's dead when I see the Force-ghost...

Candi Young: so where does Anakin fit into the analogy?

Jessica Coplen: Wait, Tyler *this is your life, and it's ending one day at a time* Durden??

Candi Young: well of course wasn't Jacen meant to die and Anakin lve

Paul Urquhart: Yeah. Both of him.

Candi Young: so there's another revision that didn't work

Jessica Coplen: hhhmmm..Anakin....well...there is a tough one.

Jessica Coplen: At first thought I wanted to say Iphigenia because of the whole "sacrifice" thing...but that wouldn't work on closer inspection

Paul Urquhart: *thinks*

Candi Young: I sometimes think Anakin was meant to have some kind of link to a force beyond the Force   but I'm not sure how that impacts on things

Candi Young: if not for Anakin the Jedi would have been wiped out

Candi Young: so how does that fit in?

Paul Urquhart: Oh, definately... right there in *Conquest*

Paul Urquhart: Dying God?

Candi Young: yep

Candi Young: possibly

Jessica Coplen: I know...but then he dies...doesn't fit in with any characters I can remember....i mean, i can think of a lot with one of the qualities, but not both

Paul Urquhart: I'm never sure whether he's Che/Byron/Jimmy Dean/John Nicholson, or Lleu

Candi Young: yeah  there's the rub

Paul Urquhart: For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Candi Young: he walks to his own drumbeat   so is he a kind of god come to earth?

Paul Urquhart: That said, I have no idea of whether it was intentional or not, but I liked the way the NJO handled that, in _Traitor_ and FH3 alike...

Jessica Coplen: And then we have all the others...Jaina, Kyp, Wedge, Corran...etc etc...none of the major Trojan War characters seem to go with them...

Paul Urquhart: Candi - whether or not they were going for that, I suspect so.

Candi Young: Wedge is an interesting one    the quintessential soldier

Paul Urquhart: He changes so much, though. By TFP, he's become a Space Nazi.

Paul Urquhart: And in TUF, he realises, so he goes to the pub.

Candi Young: ah sense returns

Jessica Coplen: I don't think they were going for anything in NJO. It was too long and drawn out. Even Homer was wise enough to cut out the first nine years of the war in the Iliad!

Candi Young: boy I garee with that

Candi Young: agree

Jessica Coplen: with me or Ewok?

Paul Urquhart: i like the chaos, personally...

Jessica Coplen: you would Ewok.

Candi Young: a case of monetary greed vs good sense

Candi Young: the chaos makes more fodder for discussion

Jessica Coplen: this is true

Candi Young: I agree that Homer was wise to know whent o stop and go to the oub

Paul Urquhart: I suspect they have enough self-knowledge to (a.) have watched the Prequels; and (b.) to know how to get a load of free hype...

Candi Young: pub

Candi Young: lol

Candi Young: certainly didn't read the books anyway

Jessica Coplen: And why did they watch the prequals?  They sucked. Anakin Skywalker was set up perfectly in the OT to be a shinying example of a Homeric proto-tragic hero...and what did we get? A hormonal teen who needs to get smacked down.

Candi Young: That idea you mentioned earlier of Zonama Sekot as the Trojan Horse was interesting

Paul Urquhart: Hmm. George puncturing his own pretentions, pretentiously?

Jessica Coplen: No Candi, they did read the books. But only whichever book the took the characters they used for their book. I hated that!

Paul Urquhart: Agreed, Candi

Candi Young: George getting mixed up with American Graffiti?

Jessica Coplen: But that was a good movie...

Candi Young: yeah  it was

Candi Young: but I guess when you make a movie you have to bow to what you think the audience may want

Jessica Coplen: See, I don't know what GL was thinking. The man directs ANH, it does good but he says it's too much for him and hands over the sequals to others.

Jessica Coplen: Doesn't direct for all those years. Then he desides to come back and direct TPM, one of the most anticipated movies of all time. What was he thinking?? It's not like riding a bike. Things have changed.

Candi Young: hence the hotchpotch effect

Candi Young: plus he would have moved on from his original vision of what he wanted

Jessica Coplen: what was his original vision?

Candi Young: so what about Zonama sekot?  I haven't finished TUF but I still think it's ambiguous

Paul Urquhart: I think the "one hemisphere of life, one of death" thing is significant...

Candi Young: I mean is it "good" or does it have its own agenda

Paul Urquhart: I get massive Gnostic World-Soul vibes...

Paul Urquhart: And the demiurge is just the demiurge. It just *thinks* it's God...

Paul Urquhart: Kinda like Palpatine.

Jessica Coplen: Ewok. Do you even know what you're saying?

Candi Young: yep - that makes sense

Paul Urquhart: As John (who says hi, and sends his apologies) pointed out to me - when we first see it in the NJO, it's shooting superlaser-scale Force lightning...

Candi Young: oh do we have to know what we're saying?  lol

Jessica Coplen: Candi - probably not...

Candi Young: plus it appears as different people as a kind of emotional blackmail thing

Paul Urquhart: The thing's the ultimate expression of Palpatine's ideals...

Jessica Coplen: True. It does pack a punch.

Candi Young: depending on whom it's talking to

Jessica Coplen: You know. I have a theory about Palpatine, the Death Star and the Vong.

Candi Young: what is it?

Paul Urquhart: Oh?

Jessica Coplen: Goes back to having the Death Star plans show up in Prequals rather then closer to ANH.

Candi Young: always thought that was odd

Jessica Coplen: If you look at it from a logical military perspective, the Death Star is totally impracticable.

Candi Young: true

Jessica Coplen: You loose resources and possible manpower by destroying the whole damn planet.

Candi Young: stupid to put all your eggs in one basket

Jessica Coplen: But what to the Vong travel on?

Jessica Coplen: When does Vegere first run into the Vong?

Paul Urquhart: Yep... I find it rather significant that it was the sight of ZS being ZS that prompted Raif Sienar to  finish the design back in RP

Paul Urquhart: It's a ZS-killer...

Candi Young: oh yeah   I'd forgotten that

Jessica Coplen: He made it because he knew the Vong were coming. That's why he sent Thrawn out to the unknown regions to map it. He thought they were coming from there.

Paul Urquhart: Sienar's way of saying "You might, um, need this - now I'm the heck outa here"

Paul Urquhart: Yep. Kenw.

Jessica Coplen: LOL

Paul Urquhart: *Knew.

Candi Young: so you think that the DS was originally designed to destroy ZS?

Paul Urquhart: Now, sure, Palpatine wanted it because he was a bad man...

Paul Urquhart: It was designed as an intellectual chalange - who knew what else Sienar came up with...

Jessica Coplen: Well, if you take the EU into consideration it would be one hell of a coincidence

Paul Urquhart: But after he'd seen ZS, he showed it to Tarkin.

Paul Urquhart: Then disappeared...

Jessica Coplen: But without the EU...a death start is just a death star

Paul Urquhart: Oh, sure...

Paul Urquhart: Now we're onto continuity...

Paul Urquhart: Okay... what could the DS be, except a metaphorical egg to fertilize, or a dragon to slay?

Jessica Coplen: Continuity?  Why bother?  GL really didn't in the prequals if you ask me.

Candi Young: so you're saying that without the EU the movies give some backstory on the DS   ut with the EU the backstory is more complex?

Jessica Coplen: And funner...wait...is that a word?

Candi Young: or was GL just filling in the gaps  lol

Paul Urquhart: It's a funner word, aye...

Jessica Coplen: GL might not even know what he did fit in with NJO and Death Star mythos....

Paul Urquhart: Well, I'd be grateful (and this goes to anyone reading this) for any evidence that "Tom Veitch" isn't really a pseudonym for George and his "more famous older brother" Rick Veitch...

Paul Urquhart: Well, on one level, I guess - is it Frankenstein's monster...

Candi Young: lol

Paul Urquhart: Tarkin = Viktor...

Jessica Coplen: However, for all it's worth, I must say that the Star Wars Post-ROTJ EU is remarkably stable for all the books, comics, etc that have come out in the past 20 or so years.

Paul Urquhart: Vader/DS/DS2/Empire = monster...

Candi Young: could be

Jessica Coplen: hhhmmm...But Frankensteins' monster just wanted love and acceptance.  I can't see the Death Star asking for that.

Candi Young: hmmmm just processing that idea

Jessica Coplen: But I can see Palpatine as Dr. Frankenstien, with Vader as his monster. That would work.

Candi Young: I think that GL borrowed from so many sources but not necessarily thinking about the deeper significance

Jessica Coplen: no kidding Candi?

Paul Urquhart: Well, think about the casting. Peter Cushing and Dave Prowse...

Candi Young: Oyah  Palpatine as the doctor   yep I cans ee that

Paul Urquhart: If anything, he thought way too much...

Candi Young: he thinks too  much

Candi Young: such men are dangerous  lol

Jessica Coplen: possibly....the OT was great...just the prequals have issues

Candi Young: LOL Peter Cushing   of course

Jessica Coplen: hhhmmm...OT=Thought to much......PT=Not thought enough

Paul Urquhart: And Prowse had played the Monster once or twice...

Jessica Coplen: yeah, i can see that

Candi Young: well Palpatine got to Anakin through his need for fatherly support

Candi Young: so I guess you could bring in a Freudian argument

Jessica Coplen: OT=mostly no-name actors in leads=GOOD     PT=mostly name actors in leads=BAD

Jessica Coplen: I could do this all night... :-)

Candi Young: true

Candi Young: lol

Jessica Coplen: Candi...don't bring up Freud around Ewok...PLEASE??

Candi Young: hee hee

Candi Young: sadly it does seemt o explain Anakin snr a bit too well

Jessica Coplen: Anyway, I still then the Tuskan Raider slaughter was all wrong in AotC. If there was no OT then it would have worked as a viable reaction for a character to have.

Candi Young: and Obi didn't really seem to know what to do with him   never really connected on an emotional level

Paul Urquhart: Yeah...

Paul Urquhart: I sometimes read Ben as quietly despairing behind the mask...

Jessica Coplen: But you have to take into consideration Vader in the OT. He's not a psychopath like Tarkin or the Emperor.

Candi Young: are there any mass slaughters in mythology that relate?

Jessica Coplen: You can't tell me that a character can slaughter ever living being in a village A) doesn't go to the dark side right then and there, and B) gets tamer when he does go the dark side

Paul Urquhart: Vader, tame?

Candi Young: lol  on the surface very odd

Paul Urquhart: He's a monster in chains...

Jessica Coplen: Comparitivly....

Jessica Coplen: crap I spelt that badly (Yeah, and ?spelt? isn?t even close to a word ? Ed.)

Paul Urquhart: Um, well, Farmboy did kill a few million. Wedge too...

Candi Young: you spelt crap right though  lol

Candi Young: and Kyp

Paul Urquhart: Hah!

Jessica Coplen: Just watch Vader. He never kills for the fun of it. He does "relesh in torture" as Tarkin does with Leia.

Candi Young: actually quite a few of them killed huge numbers

Jessica Coplen: He's like the ultimate ruthless business man.

Paul Urquhart: At the risk of sounding like Vergere, "There is no Dark Side"

Jessica Coplen: At the risk of sounding like Luke, "There is because we believe there is"

Paul Urquhart: Sorry - my last remark should have been a question

Paul Urquhart: Or, to paraphrase Anakin "I have nightmares."

Jessica Coplen: Aaaawwww...does the little boy want a nightlight?  Maybe a little comfy blanky?

Candi Young: similarly various religions have caused mass killings - some are regarded as fine while others get bad press

Jessica Coplen: "No one except the Spanish Inquisition."

Candi Young: lol   and nobody expecte dthat

Jessica Coplen: ARGH.. must proofread before hitting enter...

Candi Young: me too

Candi Young: typing is baaad

Paul Urquhart: *cracks up*

Paul Urquhart: So, as R.D. Laing said to me in a dream the other month, "It's all psychology"?

Candi Young: well Anakin was obvioulsy unstable and haunted   so why did the lead Jedi not deal with that

Candi Young: they were pretty lax or dumb or something

Paul Urquhart: Because they all were, too, and found it... interesting?

Jessica Coplen: So, we have look killing millions to save millions and strike a blow against the empire...this is okay. We have Anakin killing a hundred or so for killing his mom..this is bad. But Luke has the higher body count!

Paul Urquhart: But Anakin did it in hot blood.

Paul Urquhart: Luke, somehow, managed to stop...

Jessica Coplen: I think the Jedi Council was suffering from the same issues as the Catholic church which caused the Reformation.

Paul Urquhart: (when he lost it at the end of RotJ)

Candi Young: yeah I agree about the Jedi Order

Jessica Coplen: DARTH!!!!   *best scene ever*

Paul Urquhart: Hmm. Did the issues cause the Reformation, or simply *become* it?

Paul Urquhart: What, end of RotJ?

Paul Urquhart: Aye...

Candi Young: which is why I always felt it important that Anakin Solo seemed to be aware of something bigger than the Jedi Order

Paul Urquhart: Agreed.

Candi Young: maybe he could see that the Order was crappy and decided he wanted out   LOL

Paul Urquhart: Anakin = Erasmus?

Paul Urquhart: Anakin = the Bishop of Ross?

Candi Young: now there's an idea for a fanfic

Jessica Coplen: Thanks for giving him ideas...

Paul Urquhart: [Erasmus' pupil, James IV's bastard, great hope of Christendom, dies too young at Flodden]

Paul Urquhart: Has a cameo in _Orlando Furioso_, IIRC...

Candi Young: did he wear a kilt?

Jessica Coplen: You know. Jacen and Anakin's debate over the Force and it's uses/concepts could somewhat parallel Luther and Calvin's debate over church doctrine.

Paul Urquhart thwaps Candi

Candi Young: yeah   agree with that

Paul Urquhart is an episcopalian, more on the Erasmus/More side of things...

Jessica Coplen: Jacen would probably be more Calvin I would think. After all, Pre-Destination is a bummer.

Paul Urquhart: Heh!

Candi Young: Jacen is also horribly repressed

Paul Urquhart: So, hang on... Luke = Erasmus, Anakin = Luther, Jacen = Calvin

Paul Urquhart: Okay. Hundred years of pain and suffering coming...

Candi Young: Cool says Jacen

Jessica Coplen: I was just going to say that Ewok, I think you hurt my brain.

Paul Urquhart: *Will the last good man alive in the Known Regions please turn out the Light*

Candi Young: lol

Paul Urquhart: EotH = Muscovy

Paul Urquhart: *starts humming the 1812*

Candi Young: Jacen = denial of the flesh

Paul Urquhart: Yep

Jessica Coplen: I just want to know where the Anabaptists come in.....hehehe

Paul Urquhart: Or Jacen = St Paul, not written as a Scotsman?

Jessica Coplen: Or the Defenstration of Prague....hehehehe

Candi Young: lol

Paul Urquhart: *laughs*

Paul Urquhart: Jacen = Cardinal Fang

Paul Urquhart: Because, really, you have to laugh at him

Candi Young: laughs loudly at Jacen

Paul Urquhart: Good.

Paul Urquhart: TF.N is never going to post this... (Ha! ? Ed.)

Jessica Coplen: Jacen so should have been the one to go...

Candi Young: I see Jacen a s a bit of a fascist actually

Paul Urquhart: yep

Paul Urquhart: Same ideals

Jessica Coplen: Ewok...there is always hope

Jessica Coplen: I can see that

Paul Urquhart: Jess, LFL think Jacen is the hero...

Candi Young:  maintaining his body boundaries and strict routines

Jessica Coplen: LFL? Sorry, for some reason that acryonym escapes me...and so does being able to spell acryonym

Paul Urquhart: LucasFilm Ltd.

Paul Urquhart: And underneath, as John would say, he's bat-sith insane...

Candi Young: whereas Anakin could be a Jedi and a normal bloke

Jessica Coplen: gotcha...and you know what...they are a company, what the hell are they doing dictacting story concepts??

Candi Young: delusions of grandeur?

Paul Urquhart: Well, most of them have a lit./editing background...

Candi Young: hence the money-making agenda and the weird character changes that mucked up things

Jessica Coplen: but that doesn't make them writers...

Jessica Coplen: A degree does one not make.....one makes the degree

Paul Urquhart: Jacen, Jacen, Jacen... pre-modern versions. Julien Sorel? (though I think he's self-cosnciously a model for Jag, in some senses)

Candi Young: I just find Jacen scary

Paul Urquhart: Oh, yeah. He lacks an ability to laugh at himself...

Jessica Coplen: I find Jacen whiny, pathetic, and thinking WAY TO HARD about things. That's the problem. You think to hard about something and you miss the picture. That's why the perfect Reformation parallels.

Paul Urquhart: Takes himself *oh* so seriously...

Candi Young: maybe that's it  lol

Paul Urquhart: Yep.

Candi Young: Yeah - can't see the forest for the trees

Paul Urquhart: Or rather, can't see the trees for the forest?

Candi Young: lots of parallels there to various weird cults

Paul Urquhart: Aye...

Jessica Coplen: Or maybe he's your typical teenager who thinks he knows everything already?

Candi Young: nope   he's not red-blooded enough

Paul Urquhart: That's Anakin...

Candi Young: too much denial

Candi Young: yep Anakin is a typical teen

Candi Young: he's normal

Paul Urquhart: Whatever that means...

Jessica Coplen: you would think the Skywalker and Solo would have created better ofspring? But instead Jaina and Jacen seemed to have gotten the worst parts of their parents

Paul Urquhart: So, two questions. Is Jacen (a.) an archetype who's only emerged in the past century or two, and/or (b.) ever, concievably, a good idea?

Jessica Coplen: The Jacen character has always existed, always will. But does not, in my opinion, make a good hero. They are best left to side-plots.

Paul Urquhart: Then again, you imagine that if Anakin had gone off the rails, even to the DS, he'd have been rather... different... than Jacen...

Jessica Coplen: Of course. Different personalities breed different reactions.

Paul Urquhart: Hmm. Mordred?

Jessica Coplen: Now don't start that again Ewok!

Paul Urquhart: Aye, sure - thinking too much of T.H. White and Alan Massie, anyway...

Candi Young: yep Jacen is a type

Jessica Coplen: well...think all you want about them...i just thought you were going off on one of your "theories" again

Paul Urquhart: Just wondering if Jacen, as an archetype, represents human a real advance in human self-examination...

Candi Young: You're going to hate me but I have to leave in 5 minutes to pick up my son from the airport

Paul Urquhart: That's fine...

Jessica Coplen: it's 1:30 here anywa...

Paul Urquhart: Thanks for dropping in...

Paul Urquhart: Before you go, can you think of any pre-modern Jacens?

Jessica Coplen: Yeah...great conversation....i enjoyed this

Paul Urquhart: Antonio in _Measure for Measure_ is the earlies who comes to mind...

Paul Urquhart: "A Puritan"...

Candi Young: hmmm is jacen an advance?  not sure

Paul Urquhart: touch?

Candi Young: hmmm

Candi Young: yeah - a Puritan   Oliver Cromwell?

Jessica Coplen: Jacen, to me, represents the ultimate in idealism. He seeks perfect introspection of the force, but the simple fact that he is human, no, a living being, will never allow it.

Paul Urquhart: Born, 1599, died, 1658 (December)

Paul Urquhart: Or is Jacen just not getting enough romance?

Candi Young: I see him more as one of those religious cult figures who have strict maintenance regimes and keep repeating mantras  lol

Paul Urquhart: Oh, aye...

Jessica Coplen: hehehe

Candi Young: well of course I can't help thinking it's the lavck of fleshly pleasure

Paul Urquhart: Jacen can't deal with his own imperfections, his own ambiguities - his Dark Side, if you will...

Paul Urquhart: You would!

Candi Young: yeah   I agree with that

Paul Urquhart: Jacen *reeeealy* wants all the girls to like him...

Paul Urquhart: He just has no idea how.

Candi Young: he's in denial

Candi Young: exactly

Paul Urquhart: And when he's in a situation where they do, he runs a mile...

Candi Young: pretends to be Mr Pure but really isn't

Jessica Coplen: Hey, I have a real problem with the Old Jedi Order not allowing marriage, love etc. One, you see what that did for the monks (thinks back to Chaucer).

Paul Urquhart: Or rather, stands there, and looks confused...

Paul Urquhart: Well, that was a lifestyle choice...

Candi Young: me too - and I can't help thinking that Jacen's victory is astep back to that Old Order stupidity

Paul Urquhart: The OJO gave 'em no option...

Paul Urquhart: Candi - check.

Jessica Coplen: Secondly, how are the Jedi Knights supposed to show compasion, when they are not allowed to know love from parents, and real love.

Candi Young: exactly

Paul Urquhart: And Jacen is worse, because he chooses it...

Paul Urquhart: Hmm, no - I disagree there.

Paul Urquhart: It's possible to imagine.

Paul Urquhart: Ben cries when Qwi-Gon dies...

Candi Young: so did the Force conspire to use Jacen to bring back its old regime?

Paul Urquhart: But that may just be loneliness...

Paul Urquhart: Or the Dark Side?

Paul Urquhart: Or Vergere?

Candi Young: did it cause Anakin to die because he had a new style?

Paul Urquhart: *chills as he remembers someone's comment on Milton*

Paul Urquhart: Anakin had style, period.

Jessica Coplen: But that's only one facet of love. Friendship. A type of love, but not like that of family and someone to share your heart with.

Candi Young: anyway   I

Candi Young: have to go

Candi Young: sorry

Paul Urquhart: Off you go...

Jessica Coplen: alright then...take care

Candi Young: really enjoyed this

Jessica Coplen: me too

Paul Urquhart: aye

Candi Young: see you at a TFN supermarket near you   lol

Paul Urquhart: indeed

(Candi leaves the room)

Jessica Coplen: Well Ewok...just the two of us, and it's 1:38 am....

Paul Urquhart: So, I guess that's it, then?

Jessica Coplen: want to keep going or call it a quits?

Paul Urquhart: Your call. Just make sure beau saves. I might put the kettle on, either way...

Paul Urquhart: Well, we seem to have reached a consensus.

Jessica Coplen: true...

Jessica Coplen: and i have to go xmas shopping in the morning

Paul Urquhart: That said, as I sometimes admit to a Calvinist friend, I'm probably rather more Calvinist than I realise...

Paul Urquhart: And Jacen is not terribly Scottish...

Jessica Coplen: LOL

Paul Urquhart: But I'll throw Hogg's _Memoirs & Confessions_ onto the pile of possible models for him...

Paul Urquhart: Right next to Hobbes, perhaps...

Jessica Coplen: hhhmmm

Jessica Coplen: I always was parcial to absolutism myself....

Paul Urquhart: So, can Jacen be saved, like Jacen was?

Jessica Coplen: that hurt my brain again

Paul Urquhart: Or is the only way he can sacrifice himself through his own damnation?

Paul Urquhart: Sorry, like Anakin was...

Paul Urquhart: Or is this all just psychology.

Paul Urquhart: I hope so...

Jessica Coplen: anyone can be saved....just dpends on what he has to save himself from...

Paul Urquhart: His own insistence he's already saved?

Jessica Coplen: usually means he has issues

Paul Urquhart: Who doesn't?

Jessica Coplen: anyway, let's pick this up later...

Jessica Coplen: it's bed time...

Paul Urquhart: Aye...

Paul Urquhart: You saved the log?

Jessica Coplen: great chatting with Ewok...let's do this again sometime

Jessica Coplen: hopefully...checking now

Paul Urquhart: I've got a copy of the end, but I've lost a load...

Paul Urquhart: Jess?

Jessica Coplen: sorry...looking at beau's comp...

Jessica Coplen: yes, it's logged

Jessica Coplen: anyway, g'night

Paul Urquhart: Yay!

Paul Urquhart: G'night. Go get some sex

Jessica Coplen: thank you....i'm sure coop would love reading that.... (La la la, not listening? - Ed.)

Paul Urquhart: And of course, I'll leave the reader to think out the Jacen/Anakin thing in more detail...

Paul Urquhart: Damn, we're good

Paul Urquhart: *bows at John*

Jessica Coplen: i hate you

Paul Urquhart: I know

Well, I don?t know what to say but thanks to the participants (and to Jessica?s better half, for doing tech support), and I hope you all enjoyed this short yet belated second Series. I?m too cynical to name a date when Series 3 will be starting, but suffice it to say, the chatting has already begun. Feel free to bother us about it by clicking here. And here.